@SlapHappy said:
Yes agreed! And same for people confused by NS2. But I do note people saying they feel NS2 was easy to jump into without RFTM. How did you feel?
Yeah it’s mostly been intuitive, nicely designed and logical. I’ve used a lot of daws so few surprises. I’m hoping for some more RTFM things being added in future though
Ah, that’s good. I didn’t have a manual so I was curious how people are getting on with NS2. Sounds like you are an experienced power user. Maybe there will be some nice surprises for you. 👍🏻👍🏻
I’m not here to defend BM3 or stir the pot more, but the complexity of the UI of BM3 is not as bad as some say it is.
BM3 took some quite new approaches to certain parts of a DAW and as such had to use new conventions. Using new unfamiliar conventions makes the learning curve steeper as many need to ‘reteach’ their muscle memory.
Also, BM3 often has multiple ways of achieving the same action and I think this confuses more than helps some.
It’s really just about spending enough time for it to become second nature. I’ve had over 100 projects through BM3 since it’s release (I rarely finish a full song lol, but many got close!).
So, I ‘get’ BM3. It’s a great app. But as my thread on NS2 says, sometimes too many options can be detrimental, so certain parts of NS2 have made me choose it above BM3. Only because I need to rationalise the amount of DAWs I’m using.
We should all prey for all the different DAWs to be successful and continue to evolve because competition in the field will help push the whole genre of app forward for us music makers
@Fruitbat1919
But as my thread on NS2 says, sometimes too many options can be detrimental
Golden !! I really loved Steve Jobs approach of reducing features list to most mimimal possible.
Sometimes he was even going against cusomers by forcing some solution which he was convicted user wants even through he doesn't know that. Which almost always later turned to be true.
I'm very sad that Cook is not going it that direction. He is systematicsĺy destroying everything what was good in Apple.
Matt is, on other side, in some way, following Jobs principles and paradim in NS2, which is (at least for me) totally graeat. I hope he will comtinue that way and will resist tomads every possible festure. You never make satisfied everybody, 80% of hem is perfectly ok
@Fruitbat1919
But as my thread on NS2 says, sometimes too many options can be detrimental
Golden !! I really loved Steve Jobs approach of reducing features list to most mimimal possible.
Sometimes he was even going against cusomers by forcing some solution which he was convicted user wants even through he doesn't know that. Which almost always later turned to be true.
I'm very sad that Cook is not going it that direction. He is systematicsĺy destroying everything what was good in Apple.
Matt is, on other side, in some way, following Jobs principles and paradim in NS2, which is (at least for me) totally graeat. I hope he will comtinue that way and will resist tomads every possible festure. You never make satisfied everybody, 80% of hem is perfectly ok
Quite often people who think they don’t really want a feature, end up appreciating it quite a lot if it gets added and they learn how to utilise it’s benefits/possibilities.
A lot of missing features requested don’t even need to impact the app for users that won’t use them. Power features can exist without a lot of users ever reaching for them or them getting in their way. But those extra features being there for the users that need ‘more’ is the mark of successful, innovative design. Making difficult things painless. Alternatively ‘anyone’ can achieve simplicity if it’s simply via omission or removal
@Fruitbat1919
But as my thread on NS2 says, sometimes too many options can be detrimental
Golden !! I really loved Steve Jobs approach of reducing features list to most mimimal possible.
Sometimes he was even going against cusomers by forcing some solution which he was convicted user wants even through he doesn't know that. Which almost always later turned to be true.
I'm very sad that Cook is not going it that direction. He is systematicsĺy destroying everything what was good in Apple.
Matt is, on other side, in some way, following Jobs principles and paradim in NS2, which is (at least for me) totally graeat. I hope he will comtinue that way and will resist tomads every possible festure. You never make satisfied everybody, 80% of hem is perfectly ok
Quite often people who think they don’t really want a feature, end up appreciating it quite a lot if it gets added and they learn how to utilise it’s benefits/possibilities.
A lot of missing features requested don’t even need to impact the app for users that won’t use them. Power features can exist without a lot of users ever reaching for them or them getting in their way. But those extra features being there for the users that need ‘more’ is the mark of successful, innovative design. Making difficult things painless. Alternatively ‘anyone’ can achieve simplicity if it’s simply via omission or removal
Agree. It’s obviously about not the amount of features but how they are implemented in the design ethos. Having multiple designs by having too many DAWs was more my issue - that stemmed from some DAWs lacking in features I needed to keep my work flow smooth. It’s a complex subject with no completely correct solution- usually involves compromise
@SlapHappy said:
Yes agreed! And same for people confused by NS2. But I do note people saying they feel NS2 was easy to jump into without RFTM. How did you feel?
Yeah it’s mostly been intuitive, nicely designed and logical. I’ve used a lot of daws so few surprises. I’m hoping for some more RTFM things being added in future though
I think spending time with BM3 and other iOS apps in general made jumping into NS2 without the manual quite easy. Just my personal experience.
Making music for 25 years.. went through long way from various trackers(modedit, fasttracker, scream tracker, buzz !!!), first midi seq (cakewalk), then reason, cubase, fruityloops, logic pro, studio one, ns1,bm2,gadget.
Never neded to read manual, always figured stuff quickly and what is most important for me i did a lot tracks with every app i used in my history.
Only exception ever was BM3, even through i tried hard, wasn't able to wrap my head about it.. too different from how my brain is wired, missing too much features crucial for me.. Which is kinda interesting for me, cause really never ever in past had such negarive experience with any music production app i used ... That doesn't mean it is generally bad app, just wondering how Intua managed to do app so vastly different, almost like they were inside of my brain and did everything in exact oppostite than it was wired there :-)))
it took me two weeks to wrap my head around cubasis, i tried bm3 for about three weeks casually and never really got anywhere. i understand mostly, and thoroughly enjoy using ns2 since the first hour of downloading. very intuitive and clever workflow here. missing some things but very nice for a start. ill still use gadget on my older ipad but ns2 will be my workhorse now and for a long time...
As soon as I picked up BM3 I got it. Same with Auria, Cubasis, gadget ect... I think it has to do with the kind of software you’re used to. I’ve used Fl studio, reason, studio one, pro tools...you name it. I then bought maschine and also added an MPC back in my workflow so i believe if you’re used to maschine and ableton, BM3 will be easy to pick up. When people didn’t get BM3 I couldn’t understand why until I realized I had an advantage and also being on the beta team for these apps listed above helped a lot. A lot of producers famous or not that came from a background of maschine,mpc and ableton had no issue whatsoever with BM3 when they picked it up. So it’s about what you’re used to and feel most comfortable using. if most of apps you’ve used are linear of course NS2 will be easier to pick up. It took me about the same time to learn NS2 then it did BM3 and all other DAW type apps.
@hansjbs said:
As soon as I picked up BM3 I got it. Same with Auria, Cubasis, gadget ect... I think it has to do with the kind of software you’re used to. I’ve used Fl studio, reason, studio one, pro tools...you name it. I then bought maschine and also added an MPC back in my workflow so i believe if you’re used to maschine and ableton, BM3 will be easy to pick up. When people didn’t get BM3 I couldn’t understand why until I realized I had an advantage and also being on the beta team for these apps listed above helped a lot. A lot of producers famous or not that came from a background of maschine,mpc and ableton had no issue whatsoever with BM3 when they picked it up. So it’s about what you’re used to and feel most comfortable using. if most of apps you’ve used are linear of course NS2 will be easier to pick up. It took me about the same time to learn NS2 then it did BM3 and all other DAW type apps.
I owned Maschine. A couple of times, in fact. Ended up selling it off both times. As powerful as it is, it just wasn’t that fun for me. Maybe that’s related to why I didn’t love BM3 as much as I wanted to.
I mean, that app is an iOS music mansion. Remarkably capable. Could be a go-to DAW for many people.
And yet, NS2 is more like a tiny home or an efficiency apartment that been wildly tricked out with moving walls and hidden chairs so that it seems far bigger inside than it actually is. And I prefer it.
I think you’re dead-on correct in your assessment of the Maschine to BM3 relationship.
@hansjbs said:
As soon as I picked up BM3 I got it. Same with Auria, Cubasis, gadget ect... I think it has to do with the kind of software you’re used to. I’ve used Fl studio, reason, studio one, pro tools...you name it. I then bought maschine and also added an MPC back in my workflow so i believe if you’re used to maschine and ableton, BM3 will be easy to pick up. When people didn’t get BM3 I couldn’t understand why until I realized I had an advantage and also being on the beta team for these apps listed above helped a lot. A lot of producers famous or not that came from a background of maschine,mpc and ableton had no issue whatsoever with BM3 when they picked it up. So it’s about what you’re used to and feel most comfortable using. if most of apps you’ve used are linear of course NS2 will be easier to pick up. It took me about the same time to learn NS2 then it did BM3 and all other DAW type apps.
I owned Maschine. A couple of times, in fact. Ended up selling it off both times. As powerful as it is, it just wasn’t that fun for me. Maybe that’s related to why I didn’t love BM3 as much as I wanted to.
I mean, that app is an iOS music mansion. Remarkably capable. Could be a go-to DAW for many people.
And yet, NS2 is more like a tiny home or an efficiency apartment that been wildly tricked out with moving walls and hidden chairs so that it seems far bigger inside than it actually is. And I prefer it.
I think you’re dead-on correct in your assessment of the Maschine to BM3 relationship.
Yeah, I almost gave up on maschine when I first bought it after using it for about half an hour but I stuck with it and eventually got it. Best tagging/browsing system by far from anything I’ve used. I wish developers will copy that.
NS2 is an efficient apartment with tricked out stuff like you’ve said. No denying that.
@SlapHappy said:
Yes agreed! And same for people confused by NS2. But I do note people saying they feel NS2 was easy to jump into without RFTM. How did you feel?
Yeah it’s mostly been intuitive, nicely designed and logical. I’ve used a lot of daws so few surprises. I’m hoping for some more RTFM things being added in future though
I think spending time with BM3 and other iOS apps in general made jumping into NS2 without the manual quite easy. Just my personal experience.
@LucidMusicInc said:
I gotta say that BM3 made a major error by incorporating everything into the bank framework. Banks should have been for samples instruments and tracks for audio and AU synths or external midi. The fact that you can’t compose midi in BM3 without assigning either an IAA / AU or dummy sample just seems convoluted. What’s especially weird in my case is when I make an AU track the “pad” stops sounding notes when I select another pad. It’s a bug probably and I haven’t got time for BM3s eccentricities anymore. Even just playing samples crashes the app. Don’t know why and don’t care anymore. Too many unfriendly design decisions by Intua. Sounds very harsh but it’s the truth. They need to step up their game.
Pretty much, lot of user interface related bad decisions
@nkdvkng said:
You have t manually highlight them all in BM3. Here u just tap select all.
That's not true. Double tapping on the "select" tool selects everything.
@nkdvkng said:
Velocity in BM3; u can select all but still have to manually turn down each events velocity after the fact one by one when within the edit / pattern window. In this I just select all in one tap, and then drag down one cursor and boom all the velocity levels within the pattern edit / piano roll goes down simultaneously.
Again not true, you can drag all of them at once in BM3 as well.
This isn't to belittle either NS2 or BM3. But in a post about "jumping ship from BM3", I feel obligated to point out inaccuracies in feature sets
Yah I am seeing a lot of people lately who quit BM3, frustrated with it, then point out things it doesnt aparently do that clearly it always did.
Could be a lot of reasons for this, either bailing because of layout/workflow or worse yet crashes, but it could also just be... them.
I have never used BM3. If it has a lot of functions that people can’t seem to find, that says something to me. Functionality/features need to be balanced with great UI/UX. This is an area I think that NS1/NS2 excels at. Balance of features with UI to create smooth workflow. If there were a whole bunch of features that I don’t need that crowd the interface (and I don’t know if that describes BM3 or not so no need to defend it anyone) then I might as well go back to desktop. Just a thought to help clarify what I think some people might be enjoying about NS2 compared to whatever app/program. And I could be wrong about that. I am not comparing or adding to the this alp vs another app, just trying tonpoint out a positive aspect of NS2.
Absolutely and I totaly agree. BM3 has powerful features but the layout/workflow is not as elegant as NS2... actually very very little on iOS is as elegant as NS2. But yah, the thing with BM3 is not clutter so much as there are just things that are not readily obvious, double taps etc and even NS2 has some of this, but the overall lack of cognitive overload in NS2 means that when you do find/discover these little gems that they are more likely to stick.
@hansjbs said:
As soon as I picked up BM3 I got it. Same with Auria, Cubasis, gadget ect... I think it has to do with the kind of software you’re used to. I’ve used Fl studio, reason, studio one, pro tools...you name it. I then bought maschine and also added an MPC back in my workflow so i believe if you’re used to maschine and ableton, BM3 will be easy to pick up. When people didn’t get BM3 I couldn’t understand why until I realized I had an advantage and also being on the beta team for these apps listed above helped a lot. A lot of producers famous or not that came from a background of maschine,mpc and ableton had no issue whatsoever with BM3 when they picked it up. So it’s about what you’re used to and feel most comfortable using. if most of apps you’ve used are linear of course NS2 will be easier to pick up. It took me about the same time to learn NS2 then it did BM3 and all other DAW type apps.
I came primarily from trackers and Samplitude (a timeline/multitrack protools-ish daw) and Samplitude was my absolute favourite. Just hacking and chopping and rearranging audio, timestretching/pitch shifting, treating it like a sampler but without the constraints that a lot of samplers have. So for me I saw BM3 as a way to quickly chop up large sounds (minutes to an hour long)and efficiently play around with them on iOS. The whole pads as ‘audio clip’ fealt familiar in two different ways. It was like a tracker, triggering samples with my finger and like a good multitrack audio editor in that I could take small bits of audio from much larger sound files and rearrange them non-destructively, boom, love(d) it.
NS2 for me is like the world I have not played in quite as much, sequencing synths etc has come in the latter half of the game for me. Gadget was instantly fun but the sound was far too week to be anything more than an Angry Birds replacement. Obsidian though allows me to build up a track and not have to lean as heavily on things like Synthmaster One and the Moogs. So yah, not a huge fan of the audio editing workflow in NS2 (slate or samples in Obsidian (yet, that one is probably more on me)), but that is not what NS2 is for to me.... yet?...
...audiotracks? That is the golden unicorn on iOS as no app does it very well for me but even if it is just a basic implimentation and means enabling track freezing ala Cubasis... wow, future looks very bright indeed.
Great thing on samplitude was per-clip fx chain.. i'm ready, after Matt adds audio tracks, use waterboarding or other effective method on him to force him do it in NS too
Great thing on samplitude was per-clip fx chain.. i'm ready, after Matt adds audio tracks, use waterboarding or other effective method on him to force him do it in NS too
Yep sorry, I changed it as I felt it was unfair on Intua to have that title riding on top of the forum's list. I'm sure they've worked very hard too and didn't want to see them flamed.
@Blip Interactive said:
Yep sorry, I changed it as I felt it was unfair on Intua to have that title riding on top of the forum's list. I'm sure they've worked very hard too and didn't want to see them flamed.
Comments
Ah, that’s good. I didn’t have a manual so I was curious how people are getting on with NS2. Sounds like you are an experienced power user. Maybe there will be some nice surprises for you. 👍🏻👍🏻
This. It really really is.
Honestly. Plus, it's boring and tired AF at this point.
I’m not here to defend BM3 or stir the pot more, but the complexity of the UI of BM3 is not as bad as some say it is.
BM3 took some quite new approaches to certain parts of a DAW and as such had to use new conventions. Using new unfamiliar conventions makes the learning curve steeper as many need to ‘reteach’ their muscle memory.
Also, BM3 often has multiple ways of achieving the same action and I think this confuses more than helps some.
It’s really just about spending enough time for it to become second nature. I’ve had over 100 projects through BM3 since it’s release (I rarely finish a full song lol, but many got close!).
So, I ‘get’ BM3. It’s a great app. But as my thread on NS2 says, sometimes too many options can be detrimental, so certain parts of NS2 have made me choose it above BM3. Only because I need to rationalise the amount of DAWs I’m using.
We should all prey for all the different DAWs to be successful and continue to evolve because competition in the field will help push the whole genre of app forward for us music makers
Golden !! I really loved Steve Jobs approach of reducing features list to most mimimal possible.
Sometimes he was even going against cusomers by forcing some solution which he was convicted user wants even through he doesn't know that. Which almost always later turned to be true.
I'm very sad that Cook is not going it that direction. He is systematicsĺy destroying everything what was good in Apple.
Matt is, on other side, in some way, following Jobs principles and paradim in NS2, which is (at least for me) totally graeat. I hope he will comtinue that way and will resist tomads every possible festure. You never make satisfied everybody, 80% of hem is perfectly ok
Quite often people who think they don’t really want a feature, end up appreciating it quite a lot if it gets added and they learn how to utilise it’s benefits/possibilities.
A lot of missing features requested don’t even need to impact the app for users that won’t use them. Power features can exist without a lot of users ever reaching for them or them getting in their way. But those extra features being there for the users that need ‘more’ is the mark of successful, innovative design. Making difficult things painless. Alternatively ‘anyone’ can achieve simplicity if it’s simply via omission or removal
Agre> @flockz said:
Agree. It’s obviously about not the amount of features but how they are implemented in the design ethos. Having multiple designs by having too many DAWs was more my issue - that stemmed from some DAWs lacking in features I needed to keep my work flow smooth. It’s a complex subject with no completely correct solution- usually involves compromise
I think spending time with BM3 and other iOS apps in general made jumping into NS2 without the manual quite easy. Just my personal experience.
Making music for 25 years.. went through long way from various trackers(modedit, fasttracker, scream tracker, buzz !!!), first midi seq (cakewalk), then reason, cubase, fruityloops, logic pro, studio one, ns1,bm2,gadget.
Never neded to read manual, always figured stuff quickly and what is most important for me i did a lot tracks with every app i used in my history.
Only exception ever was BM3, even through i tried hard, wasn't able to wrap my head about it.. too different from how my brain is wired, missing too much features crucial for me.. Which is kinda interesting for me, cause really never ever in past had such negarive experience with any music production app i used ... That doesn't mean it is generally bad app, just wondering how Intua managed to do app so vastly different, almost like they were inside of my brain and did everything in exact oppostite than it was wired there :-)))
it took me two weeks to wrap my head around cubasis, i tried bm3 for about three weeks casually and never really got anywhere. i understand mostly, and thoroughly enjoy using ns2 since the first hour of downloading. very intuitive and clever workflow here. missing some things but very nice for a start. ill still use gadget on my older ipad but ns2 will be my workhorse now and for a long time...
As soon as I picked up BM3 I got it. Same with Auria, Cubasis, gadget ect... I think it has to do with the kind of software you’re used to. I’ve used Fl studio, reason, studio one, pro tools...you name it. I then bought maschine and also added an MPC back in my workflow so i believe if you’re used to maschine and ableton, BM3 will be easy to pick up. When people didn’t get BM3 I couldn’t understand why until I realized I had an advantage and also being on the beta team for these apps listed above helped a lot. A lot of producers famous or not that came from a background of maschine,mpc and ableton had no issue whatsoever with BM3 when they picked it up. So it’s about what you’re used to and feel most comfortable using. if most of apps you’ve used are linear of course NS2 will be easier to pick up. It took me about the same time to learn NS2 then it did BM3 and all other DAW type apps.
I owned Maschine. A couple of times, in fact. Ended up selling it off both times. As powerful as it is, it just wasn’t that fun for me. Maybe that’s related to why I didn’t love BM3 as much as I wanted to.
I mean, that app is an iOS music mansion. Remarkably capable. Could be a go-to DAW for many people.
And yet, NS2 is more like a tiny home or an efficiency apartment that been wildly tricked out with moving walls and hidden chairs so that it seems far bigger inside than it actually is. And I prefer it.
I think you’re dead-on correct in your assessment of the Maschine to BM3 relationship.
Yeah, I almost gave up on maschine when I first bought it after using it for about half an hour but I stuck with it and eventually got it. Best tagging/browsing system by far from anything I’ve used. I wish developers will copy that.
NS2 is an efficient apartment with tricked out stuff like you’ve said. No denying that.
This is exactly what happened to me
Pretty much, lot of user interface related bad decisions
Absolutely and I totaly agree. BM3 has powerful features but the layout/workflow is not as elegant as NS2... actually very very little on iOS is as elegant as NS2. But yah, the thing with BM3 is not clutter so much as there are just things that are not readily obvious, double taps etc and even NS2 has some of this, but the overall lack of cognitive overload in NS2 means that when you do find/discover these little gems that they are more likely to stick.
I came primarily from trackers and Samplitude (a timeline/multitrack protools-ish daw) and Samplitude was my absolute favourite. Just hacking and chopping and rearranging audio, timestretching/pitch shifting, treating it like a sampler but without the constraints that a lot of samplers have. So for me I saw BM3 as a way to quickly chop up large sounds (minutes to an hour long)and efficiently play around with them on iOS. The whole pads as ‘audio clip’ fealt familiar in two different ways. It was like a tracker, triggering samples with my finger and like a good multitrack audio editor in that I could take small bits of audio from much larger sound files and rearrange them non-destructively, boom, love(d) it.
NS2 for me is like the world I have not played in quite as much, sequencing synths etc has come in the latter half of the game for me. Gadget was instantly fun but the sound was far too week to be anything more than an Angry Birds replacement. Obsidian though allows me to build up a track and not have to lean as heavily on things like Synthmaster One and the Moogs. So yah, not a huge fan of the audio editing workflow in NS2 (slate or samples in Obsidian (yet, that one is probably more on me)), but that is not what NS2 is for to me.... yet?...
...audiotracks? That is the golden unicorn on iOS as no app does it very well for me but even if it is just a basic implimentation and means enabling track freezing ala Cubasis... wow, future looks very bright indeed.
@Audiogus
Great thing on samplitude was per-clip fx chain.. i'm ready, after Matt adds audio tracks, use waterboarding or other effective method on him to force him do it in NS too
YES!
Best audio tracks implementation ever. Period.
Hope Matt takes lot of inspiration from Samplitude :-)
I guess I lucked out / was cursed to just fall into it 25 years ago. It has raised my expectations to unreasonable degrees.
I was like haha someone made a thread like me with a different title until I realized it was mine changed haha. No flame wars allowed.
That was actually you who changed it, just you was so stoned from Nanostudio awesomeness that you don’t remember it
Yep sorry, I changed it as I felt it was unfair on Intua to have that title riding on top of the forum's list. I'm sure they've worked very hard too and didn't want to see them flamed.
Good call.
So so true lol
True that. Good call. Sorry about that Matt