Some feedback, containing interesting points.
I saw the following over at the AudioBus forum.
It is a personal view, of course, but it shows in how much some single points can color the impression.
I found the reception and point of view interesting.
And this is not to start some fire here!
Please read this was what it is, a personal view, some personal expectations and how missing things can affect the reception of an App.
@oat_phipps said:
So I've read the manual and completed a song with it, and I like it, but don't love it. The main things for me1) Synth and all the sub menus don't feel natural to program. The absence of a modwheel hurts it. As it is, it can get unique sounds via the range of filters but I can't do anything truly wild with it. Based on my experimentation and the presets, it seems designed for more usable, cookie-cutter synth sounds than anything. Still, it's functional and sounds pretty good if not great.
2) Not having per pad aufx available on Slate. Big, big buzzkill. It's nice to import a full kit of 16 samples (hello, Patterning 8 track limitation), but it really sucks not being able to use Kleverb on a snare and not the kick, etc. The built in reverbs are lacking. I know I could load 16 instances and use 1 for each pad, but come on now.
3) AU Midi is also a huge buzzkill, since it works, but won't record. Of all things, hopefully this will be fixed VERY soon. The idea of it being a streamlined DAW doesn't quite jive since it's available in the first place but only for playback purposes.
Also, I haven't found a quick and easy way to randomize hihat or other Slate pad velocities (like say from a volume range of 100-127). Maybe that's all user error, but the more I've learned about NS2, the more it seems to err on the side of simple.
From an objective, non NS1 fanboy standpoint, I can understand the hype, and I really enjoy using NS2. It seems to get me working faster and easier than any other workstation. But items 2 and 3 are things I would expect present for something I've heard has been in development for 6 years.
Not pressing anything here, but maybe the missing features mentioned could get some attention 
@Fruitbat1919 Maybe you can comment, as you did?
Comments
I can comment soon - watching telly
All I can say is if someone can’t “get anything wild out of it” they ain’t tryin’. While some of the things being mentioned would be nice additions, there’s way more than a glass half full here.
What @anickt said +1000!
It actually takes skills to get nothing wild out of a single obsidian fm oscillator.
I especially don’t understand the point about not having a “modwheel”. Is there some actual functionality an on screen modwheel would enable that is missing? Or do they just find the macros page not skeuomorphic enough for their taste?
I think it’s easy to take something expressed and take it the wrong way. I’m not saying that’s what is happening here, but what could happen.
NS2 to myself is a great success in the terms I equate to what I use to make music, but it is still fair to express other terms of what we would like to see iOS host software become. This action does not equate in any way to being the same as what’s missing being more important.
Therefore, I will watch my words cautiously.
Firstly let me state a few things so that it gives a basis for my opinions:
It is with the above in mind I make my own personal opinions regarding all iOS Hosts / DAWs.
I have many iOS Hosts / DAWs. While I have not been using PC / Mac / Lin devices for making music in a long while, I have a reasonable idea of comparison between them and iOS. It’s with this many of us get our ideas of what features are possible and attainable already on other platforms.
So while I can see the advantages of laptop and other devices, my own personal situation makes the advantages of iOS (portability, spread of cost) preferable.
In this sense, we have a market that in my mind is not ready for the high price DAWs of the Mac / PC market (yes you can make music cheap or even free on computer too, but in this case I’m talking about the main high price DAWs). iOS hardware is getting close to the point where it’s ready, but the market is some way off imo.
So while I think it’s good to discuss what we would like and why - how it could be implemented and why the lack of some features can hold our personal visions of workflow (I dislike that word) back, it’s also problematic. Why? Because people have skewed perceptions on the internet. No amount of words can really express most opinions without at least some confusion and often someone feeling slighted.
From my perspective there is not one iOS host / DAW that has everything I need to fulfil how I currently make music - hence I use more than one. NS2 has currently joined that selection of DAWs because it has certain aspects that make it favourable for myself over some others. These are:
So what does NS2 lack and what does it mean?
For myself, I have only two needs:
1. A mini timeline (written about elsewhere).
2. AU midi recording (acknowledged by most here).
Anything else are just things that are either:
1. Possible in other ways
2. Not suitable for the apps concept
3. Not really economically viable in either time or money
4. Possible at a later date
5. Are already roadmapped to be included
6. Or just wishful thinking
7. Maybe not possible from a development or technical perspective.
So my message to peeps here is that it’s fine to discuss any aspects of an app, as long as we do it in a polite manner.
Every iOS DAW / Host could be improved in ways - that’s just the nature of how software develops. I personally love hearing opinions on how people use these apps and how they might be improved to improve our use of them. Some may find this uncomfortable, but it’s not my desire for that.
Happy Xmas and mince pies to you all
Obsidian is a very capable Synth, but not the end of all Synths.
So, why not let other people state their own impression?
Some people touch nothing other than Model 15, Model D or Zeeon.
If they prefer it this way, why not?
I found the quoted statement to be very interesting and valuable to the community!
It is a honest feedback from a certain viewpoint.
So, nothing other you can reply here?
I like Obsidian myself, don't take the "not wild" so heavy, people communicate in different ways
Can the macros page be used to modulate the currently played keys live, like with a modwheel?
Also, what is with support for external keyboards and modwheels?
As it seems, such modulation is important to some people.
NS2 cannot fit all holes / goals / feelings.
And it probably will never.
But I don't see a problem with that.
We can still discuss about different expectations, or?
I think some of the discussion over Obsidian stemmed from some impressions that some took to heart before release. I don’t have links to the exact conversations, but some seemed to have got the impression that Obsidian was going to be the synth to end all synths on iOS and that it did this at such low power requirements.
I really love Obsidian. It hits the mark for myself, but there is no getting around some bought a certain amount of hype about it being something that it is not. That’s the thing about hype, there will always be some that imagine things that are a tad unrealistic and then get disappointed.
I’m not saying that’s where the post shown here was coming from. I can just see some were a little underwhelmed, I believe from unrealistic expectations.
The fact that I agree that Obsidian is not the best synth on iOS for emulation of Analog or some of the most powerful digital synths - it’s still great and for what it costs in resources it’s wonderful - really top notch in actual use in a track.
People make different music though and some want the power synths that I’m afraid usually come at a cost - cost of resources.
I know that no one is trying to belittle Obsidian at all - but no synth will ever be everything to everyone.
I love this post. Well considered and weighed opinions and I totally agree on what you said about Obsidian – it’s not about to challenge Diva or Massive or Serum or the top notch iOS synths, but you can probably have 20 Obsidians running for the CPU price of one of those top notch iOS synths. That’s a heck of a lot of good enough! And if you chain those 20 Obsidians… It’s not Goliath, it’s the scrappy kid with 7 mean slingshots. Different uses for different tools.
In my opinion we’re at a really interesting point in NS2’s development, on the one hand, it’s just released, and there’s a huge pile of awesome there but on the other, also a few obvious and central omissions, which are frustrating to people who can kind of see the goal already but just can’t get there. Those people might not have used NS1 or don’t remember the huge advancements that happened during its lifetime and the steady stream of free updates. So there might be disappointed comments, or it just might not be that guy’s cup of tea.
I think we’re going to get that 80/20 of what we hope for. It’s just a matter of accepting that it takes a while, and that this time we may have to pay for big upgrades so that they can keep coming. What we have now is a rock solid base that’s good to build on.
@Fruitbat1919 @tja
I think it will take a while before people fully begin understanding Obsidian.
Day one (or day five) opinions are certainly important and maybe speak to what you hear 'out of the box' more than anything. As well as perhaps the learning curve itself (which was a part highlighted in the original comment).
I've been working with Obsidian for. Well, a long time. There is a learning curve. I don't think it's that steep given that the UI is about as clean as it can be without going nutballs modular/dropdown dialogue, etc.
I will say that none of the patches I created in the first 5 days (or indeed, probably first 5 weeks) with the synth made into any of the IAP.
I'm sure people will come up with stuff that surprises me and goes well beyond anything I've created. There is a lot of "hidden" sound design potential. May just take some time to shake out.
I was just giving honest feedback from a certain viewpoint, my own. I don’t see how me making a comment is any different from anyone else making a comment or any more or less valid than anyone else’s comment.
That being said, NS2 has only been out for a couple of weeks. I don’t see how anyone could’ve dug so deeply into Obsidian that they could find it lacking. But maybe that’s just me.
I like to look at these things for what I can do with them. Not the few little things that maybe they don’t do, which often seems to be other people’s approach.
Yes, after six years I’m still learning cool new things (mostly from dendy) weekly. That patchbay is like a bottomless pit.
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Agree. It might be worth while from a business sense to try to fit in some form of loop playing in the future to be able to have a stream of income from that area. I have been surprised to see some comments regarding the price of the IAPs being too high! (I saw them on you tube and not on here). I’m quite shocked by that, but there are obviously different market scales within iOS buyers, so I suppose it’s a sign that some cheaper loop fodder could be ideal to give income to help secure a longer life for NS2. It’s already been discussed elsewhere and looks quite possible to fit in from a design ethic - at least without spoiling the ease of use of NS2 or adding the problems that come with poorly implemented feature creep.
As you say though, we are thinking out aloud about all sorts in a very early stage for a released app and the dev or anyone else should not read into these requests as anything more that just excited chatter amongst friendly people who love the app.
Yes, Obsidian is well laid out and for myself, not at all complicated. The interface is so easy to use - I’m from an old hardware period when digital synths took over from Analog as the mainstream. Most software synths are a breeze to get around after the days of 90s digital hardware synths lol.
I do however feel that something must be getting missed how we are expressing our feelings about Obsidian, due to some people seemingly seeing our opinions as being negative - which mine is not at all.
I guess it wouldn’t be the internet if that didn’t happen 😂
Another thing to think about is where certain synths fit in a mix of your type of music.
I make music that just won’t take lots of synths that want to hog the whole show. When I say bread and butter sounds, I personally mean the ones I will use in at least 70% of my tracks in a mix. For this, Obsidian is ideal and far more preferable to myself than lots of Moogs
You will be surprised, I am not so much interested in Obsidian at all.
I also never used Twin 2 from Auria Pro...
But that is just because I mostly dabble around with MIDI and exchange Synths to try different sounds. I rarely finished anything and also rarely render to audio.
Synths are totally exchangeable to me, because I never create patches at all - I just use the existing patches. I have zero skill and knowledge for creating patches, and most Synths like Obsidian just confuse me
I would like NS2 to later be my new central DAW, which currently Cubasis is.
But then, I am currently equally happy with Xequence, AudioBus, AUM and a mixture of IAA and AU Synths.
And I would love to see NS2 to fit all my wishes! Maybe it will.
Just to post a totally different view
But still, I am very interested in those things that other people like to see or realy miss in NS2.
Every single reply, comment, feature request or wish is quite valuable, IMHO.
Yep that’s for sure. Words are such funny things - so easily misrepresenting the users intention and equally as easily manipulated.
One things for sure, most of us here really like NS2 and will have fun making music with it and other apps too. Plus it’s that time of year to eat too much...
Totally. For me my favorite desktop synths are Arturia Minimoog and Massive. But they also are polar opposites on the front end and how I approach them.
Minimoog is simple, straightforward, and just always seems to sound good almost no matter what.
Massive is complex but generally capable of a lot more than Minimoog was ever designed for.
If you had to press me, I would say I like Minimoog more just because of ease of use (I tend to skew towards that as I only have so much time, like everyone else). With that said I'm sure there's an alternate world version of me who leans more towards Massive. Makes total sense.
Obsidian is somewhere in the middle, to me. Simplicity with a whole lot of (in some cases quite hidden) complexity.
I don't take as a negative at all to compare synths especially on these entirely subjective matters. In fact, as mentioned, any lack of straight-forwardness has to be considered.
In the end, I think that's how it will skew after people have given it a lot more time and sort out what they like/don't like. Some will like its simplicity. Some will think it's too complex. Some will think it's too simple. Some will find it just right. Some just want presets. Others want to endlessly tweak.
Again, maybe I’m missing something, but from my experience so far yes it can, - every single knob is like a modwheel when you’re playing, and the xy pad is even better. AFAIK, there’s is absolutely no problem with support for external modwheel either. Here, I mapped the y axis on my Seaboard to the x and y pad. Could map it to all the macro parameters at once if I wanted. Neat thing, I can set this up so that when I switch track my hardware now modifies the macros for that track. (So eg, with a Korg Nanokontrol, I can map the knobs to the macro knobs. When I switch to a different track I now control the macros for that track without changing anything. Easy as pie.
I don’t mean to be a jerk, but as an owner of all the newer Korg iOS synths, and the Moog iOS synths, I’m willing to say that if you can’t get a decent sound out of Obsidian, you probably haven’t explored it enough. I’m not a professional music maker or sound designer, but some of the patches I’ve gotten out of it sound great to me. And it’s plenty flexible. You can control more than enough parameters from the front console. And then chain other junk to the LFOs. And then layer in FM Synthesis. And then put it through one of the filters. And then put it through another one of the filters. And then...
@Fruitbat1919 it may not be the best synth for analog emulation, but it’s not lagging far behind. Besides, the only way to really get analog sound is still an analog synth. Spending a lot of time worrying about what sounds most analog in a digital domain is the biggest workflow disruption in existence. It’s fun to debate it once in a while, though. 😁
You're definitely not jerk :-) I made probably around 250 of Obsidian factory patches (which took me significant amount of time), but even after that i still sometimes discovered some hidden gem, some technique, with profound impact to particular part of sound design. This thing is unbelievably deep, it still amazes me how much it is deep, and i'm afraid i still did not discovered everything ...
I'm not saying that Obsidian doesn't have it's limits - there are some boundaries, and they are nothing esoteric, nothing like "hard to describe analog synth mojo". There are some aspects, some details which experienced sound designer reveals in some moment. Those details leads to boundaries in Obsidian.
All those are by design, because if they would not be there, average iPad would be able handle maybe 2-3 instances.
So yes. There are limits. And yes, there are some areas where Zeeeon, or Model D, or Korg iPolysix, iOddysei (for price of eating significant part of CPU power) simply sounds better. More close to real HW things. But there is also significat area where sound of these apps overlaps, and actually with smart sound design you can go very close with Obsidian. Even close to HW synths (be sure i had and still have few to compare)
Anyway - few days of random tweaking or browsing patches is just like trying estimate ocean depth while standing on beach :-D Looking forward to debate about Obsidian's boundaries year from now
I definitely haven’t said I can’t get a decent sound out of Obsidian, I definitely can (I know you are not implying I have said that either).
As for debating Analogness, that’s way too geeky for me. My idea that Obsidian lacks in certain areas of sound (mainly the filters), is a mute point in most projects anyway and admittedly is very geeky lol. I have owned and played a fair few Analog synths and I’ve been keeping a keen interest on what is essentially virtual analog through computer software and hardware with what are essentially the software on chip - over the years there is no doubt in my mind of the improvement of virtual analog. When I discuss digital, I’m pretty much meaning other types of synthesis from subtractive.
I do think that my comments are being misunderstood though and I have tried to be very careful of my language. I’m not saying Obsidian can’t make decent sounds - it can! I’m not saying Obsidian can’t do analog emulation - it can! I am saying that imo some apps handle that emulation of analog in a way that exhibits more of the character that I associate with real analog. The differences are totally mute for many uses though as are using a real analog synths over software. Some types of music it can be an advantage, some it’s hardly worth the effort. That’s even without going into what with and how many now listen to music - much of the listening devices out their are so poor at even giving a fair representation of a mix that most of the debate about sound quality or character get lost.
Obsidian is Will now be one of my most used sound sources when creating my music - the most important feature in this use is the fact it sounds good and gives me the ability to have lots of tracks. If I wanted the character I hear from DRC, I will use DRC. Same with any other sound, but to be fair, it’s for my pleasure anyway, as I’m not even making music for the open market.
So for others worried that people are saying that Obsidian can’t make great sounds - don’t worry! Obsidian is very capable and the standard presets and packs are some of my favourite well rounded sounds I’ve had on an iOS app in years - this is personal opinion though and some may not like them as much as I.
I’m pretty sure that for a built in synth / sampler, that the dev made the correct design choice. Low power use and high track count over creating a synth that uses as much resources as possible to create the best filters possible, is the correct choice imo.
I totally have no understanding forthis Obsidian discussions!
What I originally posted, is a quote that contains very valuable feedback with lots of details in some certain points!
The fact that there is one small sentence about "not wild" sounds from Obsidian is totally uninteresting and just a personal point of view and also formulated in a specific manner.
Why all this discussion about Obsidian good or not good or capable or not or the end of all Synths or not???
This is not the point and rely not interesting at all.
Of much more interest are the other points, the feedback of someone and his honest impressions as well as points that were important to him.
Only one point was discussed, the modwheel.
And I would be curious, if the provided solution to use the macro page, could fulfill the wishes of people who need a modwheel.
So, please let's stop to discuss if Obsidian is "good enough" or not.
That's realy not important.
@Fruitbat1919 yeah, I can see that you’re pretty serious about sound, and that’s a good thing. I agree that Korg and Moog are crazy good synth makers. The apps you mentioned are just...headshaking.
And your reasoning is good. I just don’t want people to get hung up on “analog!” and then miss out on what is a fantastic music machine.
But we’re basically in agreement on all of this. 🙂
@dendy I doubt I’ll ever really find the boundaries, with the way I use Obsidian. Even if I did happen to stumble across one, I probably wouldn’t even know it.😅
I get your original idea, but we got sidelined in geek chat....so no mince pies for you for trying to Melvin us geeks! Lol
Seems we are being too geeky lol
Call me idiot (don’t you dare), and I am not a sound expert (no, really) but regarding the Obsidian I believe it was not build to have some character as many analog reincarnations through some kind of distortion, analog modeling, sound irregularity etc. so you will be able to use all the possible frequencies and destroy them by yourself.
Of course this is only my view but I think there are at least 2 people here who can confirm that. You know who you are.
No, not you... not you either... nope,... no...
Anyway, bottom line, easily worth the half if not more of the app’s money, but am afraid in standalone very few would care to buy it.
This !
There is no such thing as too geeky.
Agreed. I think people should be able to discuss issues related to using 3rd party AU without it constantly turning in to the Obsidian Wars every time...
Obsidian’s nice, I think everyone’s agreed
No need to have the same discussion over and over. Wanting to use other instruments is equally as likely to imply someone ‘knows their stuff’, as it is likely to imply someone ‘doesn’t appreciate or understand Obsidian’. Better to give people the benefit of the doubt instead of forcing them to validate their motives every time. Everyone has preferences....
And even if Obsidian did render other synths obsolete, anyone that’s built up a lot of user presets in other synths over a long time is obviously going to want to be able to quickly reach for those. Instead of wasting time trying to replicate those or find those sounds in existing Obsidian presets.
I think Obsidian is a great addition to my synth app collection. Some great and unique sounds. I’m glad it doesn’t sound like a Moog, because when I want those sounds I can just use those apps. I’m enjoying getting to know the uniqueness of Obsidian. I think we might be a bit spoiled on the iOS platform these days. I’m so glad I don’t have to buy hardware synths like in the old days, but I know some will always prefer the hardware. We all have different but valid preferences.