Slate kit completely silent on project reload
I don’t know if my project file has got corrupted but if I create a new instance of Slate, load a kit (any kit - user or factory) & all is fine: tap the pads and sound is heard from Slate; write a midi clip and sound is heard from Slate. All good so far.
Save the project. Immediately reload the project. The Slate instance is now silent. Tap the pads and nothing - nothing on the meters on the Pad setup tab, nothing. Play the midi clip and nothing. Silence. Load another kit into the Slate instance. Still silence: pads, midi clip, everything. Total silence. Click edit on the sample tab and the sample plays in the editor & can be heard fine. Return to the pads & silence.
Has anyone else had this at any point? I think I’ve covered the basics of trying to sort it myself (although any suggestions welcome) so was wondering if it’s plausible the project file’s got corrupted & if so is it possible to repair it : I’ve been working on it on and off since December & it isn’t something I could reproduce very easily.
Running on an iPhone XR although not with last week’s IOS release.
I’m happy to post a video of it if that will help?
Many thanks in advance for your time & any help.
Comments
What I mean is I’ve been working on the project since December & I couldn’t recreate it easily if I was asked just to start again in a fresh project.
Hi @TakkAtakk , that sounds potentially tricky, but I'll give it a go.
First off I would suggest you go through the basics like you have already but in case there's something you might have not noticed.
Ok, that should get you started. When the silent output has happened to me, about 80% of the time I've missed a setting or a cable has been unplugged or something, the rest have been crashed AUs. I hope it's something simple, but in case it isn't, at least we've eliminated a bunch of possibilities!
Hi @Stiksi - I really appreciate you taking the time to answer in such detail. It’s late right now so I’m going to sleep on it - and I’m going to off the device (thus covering item number 9) and I’ll go through your points methodically in the morning.
I have since posting also noticed something weird going on in the same project with a sample-based Obsidian instance (two revolving icons are displayed - one around the transport record icon, and one on Obsidian’s sample layer view - that I’ve not seen before) and the patch is not only no longer playing correctly but this Obsidian instance is now refusing to load any other patches from its patch browser now it is in this state.
What has struck me though - and I don’t know if it’s maybe related - but even though my project is using a large number of Slate instances and Obsidian instances, this issue is only affecting the 1st 2 instances of Slate and the 1st sample based instance of Obsidian. All other instances of both devices that follow are all ok.
So it got me thinking if I’ve maybe hit a limit as to how many sample-based devices I can run in a project - or a limit as to how much (in size) or how many (in number) samples NS2 can load? However it’s just a theory that struck me - no idea if it is a realistic theory. Oh - the cpu meter is hardly taxed so it’s not a cpu resources issue. Although I’d assume samples are streamed where necessary, maybe if they’re not it’s a memory capacity issue with the iPhoneXR or NS2?
Just some thoughts. I’ll go through your list tomorrow.
Many thanks for your time 🙏🙏
Well, your limit for sample based instruments is your RAM, NS doesn’t stream from the disk yet. But it does sound like there might be something fishy going on…
are there any AUv3 plugins loaded in project ? Or in other words is this happening also with completely blank new project ?
maybe strange question - but do you have installed any audio damage plugins (not loaded in project, just installed) If yes, just try for a while uninstall them and then try again .. sounds weird but just try it :-)
i would try also to completely reinstall NS of course... Akso make sure before you run NS to stop all other apps - just in case they are consuming too much memory.
Nope, all samples in Obsidian/Slate are loaded into memory, just audio editor does streaming from storage (hence it is capable of efiting up to 2 hours ling audio files)
Hi @Stiksi & @dendy
Many thanks for your help with this. I am now convinced it’s a memory limit issue because I originally thought it was either an issue with the particular patches or - as said originally - the project file was corrupted.
However I decided to move the 2 Slate instances & the Obsidian instance further down the track order (to the very bottom of the track list), saved the project, reloaded the project and yay! - they are now producing sound again. Brilliant. However the 2 instances of Slate that are now the first two sample-based instruments (I’m using many instances) are no longer making any sound on project reload. Boo!
If I set their track type to “No instrument”, and then change it to “Slate”, load in my patches, press play - sound is made, all good. Save the project, reload it, no sound.
So, it’s definately not the patches, and I’m convinced it’s not the actual project file. I can reproduce the behaviour in other instances of Slate and Obsidian merely by moving their tracks in the track list.
As an aside, @dendy , I am using Audio Damage’s RoughRider here and there, and I use Replicant2 to death - although part of the reason my sample-count is so high is that I sample its output, chop them up then load them into Slate, partly to save on cpu and also so as to have something permanent due to Replicant2’s random nature. So once sampled, Replicant is removed from the insert chain (not just bypassed).
Any reason why Audio Damage specifically?
Many thanks to you both once again for your time & help. ✋🙏🙏🙂
Good troubleshooting going on here.
Since all the instances can play if they're added after loading the project it doesn't seem like a ram issue. It seems like there could well be an initialization bug when loading projects.
One thing you could try on a copy of the project (it does happen on copies, I assume?) is remove a non-sample based track, for instance if you have any tracks that just have synth patches. If you only have one silent track on reload instead of two, it would seem to point to the number of overall tracks. If not, then it would seem to be related to the number of sample-based tracks. If so, then it may be possible to tell if it's related to just Slate, to Obsidian, or to the combination of both.
Fortunately the problem doesn't seem to exist for saving files since your project is intact! You should definitely be working only on a separate saved copy of the project, not the original. Whatever you do, you should keep that copy safe until the problem is positively identified.
It might be helpful to know how many tracks overall, and how many each of Slate and Obsidian. Sometimes numbers like 16, 32, 64, 256, etc. are are clues toward variable initialization issues since programmers sometimes use a certain integer type to reduce memory, but run into issues if the bounds of those integers are exceeded.
Yes, @number37 makes a good point: before you do anything drastic, like reinstall Nanostudio, it's probably best to export the projects you don't want to lose as .nsp files to a separate device using the "Archive" function in "Project". Exporting them will collect all the samples and presets into the same file, so it's self-contained.
If you do decide to reinstall, also backup your NS folders like Instruments, Templates and Library so you don't lose any of your presets or samples. This is easiest using WebDAV, Cyberduck works best if you're a mac person.
This does not sound like a problem that warrants or will be helped by reinstalling. If no less drastic measures result in an answer, maybe, but seems like a "ready, fire, aim..." kind of approach.
If you have another device available, trying to load the project on it would be one quick way of seeing if it's an installation related issue.
Hi @number37 , @Stiksi
Ok - sorry about the delay: real life, and also having to be methodical in approach.
So, ok, in a copy of the project (well, it ended up being 4 copies in the end!) I stripped out all non Slate and non sample based Obsidian channels (although not their group-tracks: however that is unimportant to the findings though as it turned out)
So, that left the project with precisely 80 tracks all in of Slate & sample-based Obsidian instances (and groups). I though 80 was significant, but it wasn’t as another sweep found some empty tracks, so removing them I got down to 75 tracks and the problem persisted.
So I did a count of Slate instances (non-muted and muted). Looooong story short, I found this:
27 instances of Slate : the problem occurred
26 instances of Slate : the problem did not occur
The mute state of the instances tracks made no difference to those numbers - they were consistent over many further tests I did, including adding additional sample-based Obsidian instances.
So, with regards to the first 1,2 (and now sometimes 3) Slate instances not producing any sound on project reload it does seem that 26 Slate instances in a project seems to be my limit.
Unfortunately I do not have another device to test this - plus I don’t know whether the number of instances are relevant to the size and/or number of samples contained in each instance.
(regarding the secondary issue of the Obsidian instance going screwy - the 2 revolving icons appearing & it refusing to load any patches, I can’t replicate it now in these stripped down projects. One for another day, that)
So, yeah - 26 good, 27 bad. Any thoughts? Or one for Matt to look into/comment on?
Many thanks for everyone’s time and input 🙏🙏🙂😷
Oh, and to repeat, this is on iPhone XR with the previous iOS to the one released last week (I’ve just not got around to installing it yet).
Well, seems like it’s nice and consistent if nothing else @TakkAtakk . Could you export the project file throught the ”Archive” function and send it to me (dropbox or wetransfer or similar works fine, send the link to me in a private message). I will try the project out and see if I can get it to misbehave.
iPhone XR has 3 GB of memory, so unless you are using large gigabyte big sample libraries, i think 27 Slates should be not limit ..
I'm pretty sure samples size IS relevant, i guess it is crucial. If there is no more memory for loading another samples, they are simply not loaded .. some apps are "solving" lack of ram by simply crashing
) I guess Matt's solution was always to avoid crash at all costs so those samples are simply not loaded, that all.. Maybe some warning / error message would be good idea in this case, to avoid user's confusion ..
I was asking about AD plugins because AD plugins in general are not much reliable in NS (i saw some users reporting issues also in other hosts, although not so often).
One user had catastrophic failures during saving project in NS (total freeze during save or mixdown) and, if i good remember - uninstalling AD plugins solved the issue ! So i was just curious if this would solve your issues ...
Hi @TakkAtakk , as I test I created a fresh project with 27 Slate instances each with one pattern and each with a different kit loaded. I couldn't replicate the problem with that approach, so there must be some other variable. It does seem getting the project to @Stiksi is the best approach if you're comfortable with that and are able to do that.
Just out of curiosity, what is the project size as shown in the "Load" listing?
I've been noticing that NS2 file actions (specifically refreshing the project list and creating a new blank project) have been taking longer than they used to.
I must admit that I am very lazy when it comes to file management, so I had too many "Untitled something" and "Test something" projects, which had either amounted to nothing or were really only to test a concept. I had pages of projects.
Since @TakkAtakk's description above looks to me like a memory issue, I thought I'd test it on my iPad. Refreshing the list of projects (e.g. to load one) was taking quite some time (around a minute?) with the blue icon spinning, and creating a new blank project was taking maybe 15 seconds.
After deleting them all, I find my iPad (gen 5 running iPadOS 13.3.1 by the way) is now back to responding instantly to these actions.
So I do suspect that there is some memory issue at the root of these issues. Whether there's anything Blip can do or not is another question. There were reports of RAM management problems in earlier iterations of IOS13, so perhaps there's something unhelpful the OS is doing... It's possible that the OS doesn't even let an app know when RAM is an issue, it just delivers very slowly or never....
Anyway, if it as RAM and the OS, then it may also depend on what else is running on the device at the same time @TakkAtakk. Or how the OS allocates RAM. All of which may make this very difficult to replicate.
Hmmm.... I also tried loading Slate kits with far too many very large samples.
Specifically:
1. copy a 108MB sample (a mixdown) into the Audio folder of an empty project
2. using Files app, duplicate 31 times (enough for two Slate kits of 16 pads each, and all samples "different") in the same folder
3. create Slate kit #1 from a blank kit with the first 16 of these samples
4. create Slate kit #2... but after loading the first 7 pads with a sample NS2 crashed.
Not really a sensible test, but maybe that points away from it being a RAM limit caused by sample amounts after all, since it didn't act in the same way?
So I'm not sure I've added anything to this discussion, sorry....
Hi everyone, sorry for the delay in reply: work, life etc
Ok - I have taken some time to try to reproduce it in a fresh project and - of course - couldn’t!
Well, not initially.
However now I can.
A little history to this though: as I couldn’t reproduce I went back to the original project and started stripping out all 3rd party FX plugins, 1 by 1 (starting with AD’s @dendy ). My test was remove a plugin, save project, reload project.
Nothing changed (ie Slate instances were still not playing) until I removed the last of 3 instances of TB’s Equalizer plugin (each being used on 3 group channels).
So back to the new test project to see if this was the issue. Nope - everything was fine.
I then noticed though that although I had all Slate instances set to the user samples I’d used in the problem project, most of the Obsidian instances were still set to default. So I changed them all to a sampled based patch (that is just a single 16th bass note sample).
Now I can reproduce it in that test project! Even the secondary issue of Obsidian no longer playing too. The order of the tracks is significant in that the instruments that stop producing sound go in top to bottom order in the track display. Moving them around, saving & reloading means that whichever are occupying those first few tracks will now not be producing sound. It may be 2 or 3 Slates, or it could be 2 Slates and an Obsidian for example.
@Stiksi - thank you for the offer. Now that I have reproduced it in a simple test project with no 3rd party Auv3 fx I’ll archive that project and send it to you after work today. It’s just a very simple 1 bar 4/4 beat with just 1 Obsidian & about 5 instances of the all the loaded Slates actually being played - although as it currently stands only 2 of those Slates are actually producing sound (the Obsidian is silent too - although see the track order comment above).
Kind regards to all, and thank you all for your time 🙂✋😷
Hi - sorry for the delay in replying. I wasn’t able to replicate it initially in a new project (see my last comment) which was a bit depressing to be honest. However I have now been able to.
To answer your question though, the size of my original project as shown in the “Load” listing is 9.3mb
The fresh “clean” Test project that now has the same issue is showing as 8.8mb.
Thanks for your help and your time with this. The same goes to everyone that have replied 😊😷
Hi @Stiksi - I’ve just tried to send you a dm however I was given no indication that it actually got sent. Could you let me know if you have received it - it contains a link to an archived project as you requested.
Many thanks 🙏
Ok, I took a quick look at the project on my lunchbreak and I can confirm that not all the tracks are making a sound. But there are 84 tracks, so the pressure on the system is quite high.
BUT, if I delete all but the first couple of Slates, they still won’t make a sound. This is a clear bug. Basically, it looks like if you overload NS, it won’t recover until you reload the project. That’s not desirable at all.
Hi @Stiksi - my original project actually had 80+ tracks (including groups & sends) but I was able to whittle it down to I think 70ish.
Some of the tracks are used for multiple sounds (sound effects in particular) but usually tracks with instrumentation (whether loops or single shots or whatever) get their own track so that they can be mixed & treated individually.
If I were to split the sound effects tracks (I have 3) into separate tracks for each sound then I’d be running well over 100 tracks in that project - but I had to compromise somewhere!
So 84 tracks is high, but not uncommonly high for me. You’ll note that although that’s the case, in the test project there are only about 4 or 5 instances that are actually trying to play anything at one time though.
And also all of the Obsidian instances are loading a patch with just one oscillator containing only one 16th note bass sample.
Thanks once again for taking the time to look at it for me 🙏🙏🙏🙂😷
No worries, I'll definitely spend some more time with it once this rush job is over. Just as a sidenote, it doesn't really matter how many voices are playing at a given time unless it's a CPU issue. Instruments have their own internal polyphony limits but the app's polyphony is only limited by CPU and RAM. since this seems at surface to be a RAM handling issue, only the number of instruments and total size of the samples in memory affects that – all samples in the project are loaded into the memory when the project loads.
But it might be that this is something completely different, I don't know. If you don't mind, I'll reach out to Matt and share the project with him as well when I'm done working it out. It's clear at this point that there is something not working right but the extent and cause of it is still a bit unclear. Thank you for your efforts, you've been a big help!
Hi @Stiksi
Feel free to share it with Matt if it will be of help. Obviously it isn’t an exact like-for-like of the project where I originally had the issue (I mean as much as I like bass, having 20+ Obsidian instances all loaded with the same bass sample would be a bit extreme!) but I deliberately included some group tracks (and groups within groups) so at least It mirrors that part of the original project.
If you or Matt require anything else from me then I’ll dm you my email address and you can contact me directly.
Kindest regards 🙏🙏🙏🙂😷